How Change Happens: Stories & Insights from Social Justice Changemakers

On Relationships, Generative Conflict & Planting Seeds — with Aisha Rios of Coactive Change

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This inaugural episode features a wide-ranging conversation with my long-time collaborator and friend Aisha Rios (she/they) — a community organizer, "reluctant anthropologist-evaluator," and Learning & Change Strategist at Coactive Change. Aisha and I reflect on a poem she wrote that represents how she believes change happens, their "change lineage" and how it's inspired them to integrate their organizing and consulting, and the practice and impact of centering deep, authentic relationship-building in change work.

We both identify as weavers so of course our conversation connects various people and resources that have influenced our praxis, the full list of which is included below. My AuDHD brain was having an ADHD-forward day when we recorded this episode, so apologies in advance to the folx whose frameworks and book titles I remixed or failed to recall live!


If you enjoy this episode...


References

  • The Undercommons Poetry Collective
  • Spring Up
  • The "Four Rs" Framework: Reform, Resist, Recreate, Reimagine (credit: Mattice Haynes, Coach & Facilitator)
  • Loving Black Single Mothers
  • Aja Imani (the person Aisha collaborates with to support Loving Black Single Mothers)
  • A bunch of books, in order of mention:
    • The Revolution Will Not Be Funded: Beyond the Non-Profit Industrial Complex, Edited by INCITE!
    • Emergent Strategy: Shaping Change, Changing Worlds by adrienne maree brown
    • Collaborating with the Enemy: How To Work with People You Don't Agree with or Like or Trust by Adam Kahane
    • Everyday Habits for Transforming Systems: The Catalytic Power of Radical Engagement by Adam Kahane
    • Poor People's Movements: Why They Succeed, How They Fail by Frances Fox Piven & Richard A. Cloward
Kai:

Welcome to How Change Happens, a podcast about social change, the messiness of praxis, and what emerges when our theories meet our day-to-day lives. I'm your host, Kai Fierle-Hedrick, learning and change strategist, facilitator, and coach, and founder of Create Knowledge, a consulting practice that helps change agents lead with their strengths.

Kai:

Today, I am thrilled to be launching the podcast with my longtime friend and collaborator, Aisha Rios. Aisha's work is multidisciplinary as a facilitator, organizer, budding artist, and reluctant anthropologist- evaluator. They see within these fields how dominant discourses and practices uphold neoliberal, patriarchal, capitalist, and imperialist power and are committed to divesting from them. In their place, they co-organize and facilitate containers for connecting, challenge, and creating, rooted in a politic of care. Aisha is especially passionate about intra- and inter-relational work within movement spaces, the kind that helps people navigate conflict and harm. Across all that she is and does, she strives for an embodied, slower pace of being and laboring... which I'm excited to practice on this podcast with you today.

Kai:

Welcome! How are you?

Aisha:

I am... I'm pretty good. I'm a little groggy. I woke up a little early this morning and then made myself lay back down, which was good, but then also results in grogginess. So I'm glad I got the extra sleep.

Kai:

I am a little groggy as well. I was up early for a school run, so we can move slow in the conversation if we need to.

Aisha:

Perfect.

Kai:

So to kick us off, I am asking every podcast guest to share something that symbolizes how they believe change happens. And we'll sort of start by chatting about what that is and why you chose what you chose. So I'm curious, what did you bring today?

Aisha:

So I actually brought a poem. It's something that I wrote in response to a prompt provided within a poetry collective that I just joined. And the prompt was about who your people are, who your people be. And I realized... I wrote this last week... and I realized, oh my gosh! This is actually a lot about how I think change happens. This is my object, symbol to bring to Kai's podcast!

Kai:

That's, like, serendipity, right?

Aisha:

Exactly. Exactly.

Kai:

Can I invite you to read it?

Aisha:

Absolutely. So this is what I wrote... My people are Freirien teachers, learners and connectors who love deeply because we know relationships foster change. My people are multi-generational artists, storytellers, and weavers who do the mirroring needed for deeper exchange. My people speak up and show out, fighters who get tired squeaky-wheeling but root into their relationships to keep persevering. My people are working on their inner demons, trauma, and sources of pain to build connection in the face of atomization and break the chains.

Kai:

Wow. Thank you for sharing that.

Aisha:

You're welcome. Thank you for inviting me to share it.

Kai:

Yeah. And that's so much more than I imagined of, like, picking an object, like, creating a poem! That's incredible. I want to share, like, some of the things I heard in it...

Aisha:

I would love that. I love feedback.

Kai:

O not even as feedback! Just, like, what's pinging for me. And then I'm curious... I'd love to invite you also to share a little bit more about, like, how it resonates with your practice and how you approach kind of facilitating social change work. I heard, and no surprise, I feel like this resonates a lot with, like, our practice and conversations, but, like, a lot around relationship... Kind of interconnection and care... but also conflict. So, like, kind of care... conflict is care, care is conflict. The kind of willingness to be in that... I was going to say, like, mess. But I actually, like, I feel like... creative zone. Because I think conflict can be creative. So, like, those... those are the things that are kind of, like, sticking for me.

Aisha:

Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Relationships are huge for me. And I see... I see relationships, like, real, like, loving deep relationships as a way that helps foster change, really, right? Change within us and with other folks. But then also, those deep loving relationships also include conflict and difficult conversations. And so, that's a space, I think, where we see changes shift within folks too.

Kai:

Can you talk a little bit about, like, your practice through Coactive Change and your organizing practice? Because that feels a part of this as well and was in your bio. Yeah, if you want to intro those... and then maybe share a little bit about how those kind of approaches and values and practices show up in your work, I would love that.

Aisha:

Well, one big thing to say is that I've been really working on bridging my organizing and my consulting work through Coactive Change. So I think, you know, the way that sometimes in our society, we're encouraged to segment who we are and the roles we hold... That's something that I've been increasingly trying to not do. So what I've learned through my organizing, I bring into my consulting practice, which makes it difficult even to define what I actually do. You know, I refer to myself as a "reluctant anthropologist and evaluator" because I have a lot of issues with the fields, both fields. And also, like, there are really beautiful, useful, creative ways of practicing within those fields as well. And so it's a both /and. But then I bring in my organizing practice into my work, which is really... has been really critical.

Aisha:

So, like, for example... Someone was looking into working with me on getting some qualitative data collection analysis coaching. Equitable, right? And so I did one-on-ones with each of the team members. I had a group conversation, read a lot of materials. So a really kind of, like, low and slow approach to, like, getting to know them and their context. And then at the end of it, I was, like, "You know what, y'all? I mean, yeah, you do want to get some equitable, qualitative data collection analysis coaching... but really you want to interrogate your positionality within the nonprofit industrial complex. Like, that's what you really want to do. Like, you're actually grappling with issues that are like... You're really grappling with, like, your role and your identity and your contributions to your potential contributions to harm."

Aisha:

And so we ended up doing, you know... I ended up... We ended up reading essays together. So we ended up doing political education in addition to some, like, you know, coaching around the methodological piece. And so it became a both/ and. And so that's an example that shows how I'm bringing in what I've learned and what I continue to learn through organizing into my consulting work. But I think that is directly speaks to, like, how I think change happens. I think it happens through really getting to know people, building relationships and having conversation. Engaging in critical political dialogue and challenging each other and asking questions.

Kai:

Can you share what the change was you saw that flowed from that?

Aisha:

So with that team, what I saw was that they began to think... They were putting the pieces together of their experiences. They were identifying, like, feeling and sensing trauma, feeling and sensing harm, and, like, being able to identify, "Okay, that's what's happening. And these are the ways in which, like, what we're doing can contribute to that... might be contributing to that." And then making adjustments to it. And so in helps of supporting them in identifying, you know, ways that harm was happening and also thinking through how they can make adjustments.

Aisha:

Which included, you know, thinking through, like, how they can push a funder, right, who is, like, dictating that they collect a particular type of data or collect data in a particular type of way. Or even pushing against... challenging their colleagues within the bigger institution. Because this particular team, learning and evaluation team, was within a larger nonprofit. So it meant really interrogating different relationships that they were a part of and, like, how that resulted and contributed to harm. And then how they could shift it.

Kai:

And I'm hearing you talk too about like how they can show up in relationships with people who may be thinking about the work differently and, like, using... You say "push" and I think of that as conflict too — like, using conflict in a generative way. Does that feel right?

Aisha:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. In a generative way and in a way that can reduce harm, but also that in that process it's transforming themselves too. Because they are being attuned to and then adjusting their practice and how they move. So not just noticing but actually doing something about it.

Kai:

I want to ask you more about, like, your... I'm thinking of it as, like, your lineage. The thing that kind of has informed how you believe change happens.

Kai:

But before I do that I want to sort of, like, step to the side a moment and ask... We've been using words like "conflict" and "harm." And I've been thinking about this a lot in my practice. And I know we talk a lot about that in our collaborations. But just: how are you defining those? Because sometimes we use them interchangeably. Sometimes I think we use "conflict" when we mean "harm." Sometimes we use "harm" when we mean "conflict." And I think — especially as we're talking about social change, systemic change — we're talking about navigating systems of oppression and harm. And so, like, teasing out what we mean by those things feels useful.

Aisha:

Yeah. So I'll start with conflict. And actually, I will shout out Spring Up. They are a collective that organizes cohort-based political education spaces for folks. Kai, you and I have been a part of a cohort in the past, and I've done this with other collaborators as well. So I definitely want to shout them out because they've definitely... those spaces have definitely contributed to my thinking around this significantly.

Aisha:

And so I think about conflict as, I mean, in the simplest terms, a difference of perspective. But then, you know, that's a disagreement, right? But then it becomes a conflict when that difference is really, like, deeply tied to a value, right? A really strong value that you believe. And so... the intensity of it increases. And so that's how I think about conflict.

Aisha:

And then in terms of harm, I think about harm as instances where someone, someones, a group, organization, institution is actually inflicting pain on another person's group. And suffering. And actually, like, reducing their personhood. Or trying to reduce their personhood. That's what I think when I hear harm. And harm can be intentional or unintentional as well

Kai:

Thank you. That's helpful. Part of why I wanted to ask is because I've been thinking a lot recently about, like, being aware of which scenario we're in is also actually important for, like, how we approach change work. I see you nodding... Yes. Because certain tactics may or may not be appropriate.

Aisha:

Well, and also, I mean, what's tricky is... I mean, what I've shared, you know, might be inferred as like a nice, neat and tidy definition. But it's really not that neat and tidy.

Kai:

And they can both be present together. Yeah.

Aisha:

Exactly, exactly, exactly. So it's, I mean, it's not... I haven't fully figured it out. It's something that I'm constantly navigating. I'm constantly in positions where I'm like, "Damn, what is going on here?" So it's a practice for real, for real.

Aisha:

But like one thing I do try to start with when I'm, you know, working with folks or navigating a situation is I'm trying to understand how people are feeling. And like what they're experiencing. And I'm trying to start there and then see where that takes me. But, like, trying to understand people just separately, like, what they're feeling and what they're sensing.

Aisha:

But it is, and then things get really tricky when people's perceptions and experiences are different. But then also I do look at power differences, you know. I look... and that's something else that I think is really important to attend to. Someone who wields a lot of power in a situation... that's different, you know.

Kai:

That's helpful. Yeah, yeah.

Kai:

I'm going to go back to the lineage question. So maybe this is more of a like, mind map, brainstorm, top of your head... Like, if I asked you to just, you know, run through a list in your head of kind of major influences... Your change work lineage. What would be on that list?

Aisha:

Well, Ii would definitely put The Revolution Will Not Be Funded on there. That was a really important text. Ii read it in grad school, Ii think. Yeah. And that shifted things significantly for me. Ii go back to it often. I've reread it multiple times.

Aisha:

And I would also say different folks that I grew up around, and different folks that I've learned about more recently as an adult. So I'm thinking about my mom — who did raise me around organizers, right? And so I was often around folks who were fighting and pushing for change. Folks who were, you know, organizing actions in the street. Folks who were, you know, trying to push policymakers. Ffolks who were doing mutual aid, right? And so, like, I saw the Hunger Coalition here in Atlanta, Georgia as an organization that my mom did work with. And so that was where I learned that... Okay, like, we can do mutual aid and take care of people. And also we can do direct action. And also we can do policy change work. So I learned about, like, different ways that people resist. And that was pretty early on. I was 18 or so.

Aisha:

And then also I will share about learning about my grandmother on my father's side, who I never met as an adult, but I learned about. The ways, like, how hard that she worked to provide for her family. And I learned about how she, you know, did a lot of work in the church to just take care of her community. And so I, I think about that a lot in terms of caring for people and centering your people, centering your relationships. So those are two women that come to mind.

Kai:

I love that you spoke both to... I don't know that I would call The Revolution Will Not Be Funded as, like, an academic text... I mean, kind of, yeah! But also... to sort of people and personal experience. I really love that both those things are present because I think that's one of the things with this podcast that I'm really interested in exploring with people is both like the way those things merge in our practice, right? I think often we talk about change work in more academic ways or we cite frameworks or we're looking for a theory of change... but our human experiences of doing the work and living the work are also shaping, you know, that practice. And yeah, my hope is this is like a space to bring more of that out and how that's kind of intersecting.

Aisha:

And we're both connectors, weavers, so that makes sense...

Kai:

And I love... We haven't really talked about your grandmother.

Aisha:

Yeah, her name was Sadie Mae. My mom's name is Angeline Rios. So I should say both their names. Yeah, my aunt Tina has been sharing stories with me and photos. And so, yeah, she seems like a baddie. I'm like, "Okay, that's where I get all this spunk from!"

Kai:

Amazing. I love it. Which is part of the energy we bring in to do the work... that attracts other people to and with us to do the work!

Aisha:

Yeah.

Kai:

I want to shift over maybe to talking about... You've shared some examples already, like, practical examples. And I love that about your work, the way you are always connecting theory and practice on the ground. But I had asked you if there was, like, an experience of change work that had challenged how you think change happens. Or, like, a project or a process that you were a part of that changed you in a meaningful way. And maybe those are variations of the same question. But I'm curious if you can share a little bit about what came up for you when I asked that...

Aisha:

So there's a couple of things that I'm thinking about. One thing I want to note is kind of like smaller scale change that I notice. Which hasn't been something that's challenged me in a really, really big way. But, like, I think about it in these, these little moments, right? Where I'm in a space and I, like, say a thing that is challenging folks in the room. And so maybe that is something that, you know, it's just kind of like brushed aside or not really delved into more deeply. And then I find out, you know, years later, months later, someone tells me that, "You know, in the moment I wasn't understanding or believing. It didn't really align with where I was at. But as time passed through other shifts and ways of, you know, learning, I have come to actually understand what you were saying. And I wanted to thank you because now I see things differently." And so that happens to me a lot

Aisha:

So I think about that. I think it's important because it shows, again, the importance of relationship, right? And like this kind of... like, it points to this kind of slow... low and slow change that can happen just by, like, being in relationship with folks and saying the thing that is like the squeaky wheel. Or, like, doing the thing that is not really going to be listened to in that moment. Because you never know, like, what little seeds you're planting that, like, if nourished... If folks are open... Can actually change how they think about things and how they move through the world.

Aisha:

So I wanted to lift that up because a lot of times you think about change and resistance as, like, really big. But it's these, like, really small, beautiful moments as well. Well, extended moments, yeah.

Kai:

Yeah, in my head I had, like, ripples. I love the seed metaphor, actually. I like it better than what came to my head. But I was thinking, like, the ripple effects, right? And then also the way... Sometimes it can feel like if we don't get this change in the immediate moment, it feels like that moment failed. But actually trusting that, like, other things may happen from that.

Kai:

Like, I've been... I went back... to Emergent Strategy and was rereading about fractals the other week. And you're making me think of that too, the idea that things kind of ripple out and replicate, and they can replicate at scale too. Yeah.

Aisha:

Yeah. So that's something that I thought about.

Kai:

You're making me think too of an experience I had, oh, maybe it's 10 years ago now? Working on a project with a similar moment of... We were early in the work. It was a participatory project. A youth participatory evaluation. And I was in, like, a meeting with... there were a couple of different stakeholders, including the foundation staff who — the foundation was funding the work. And I shared a story that had come up in an interview.

Kai:

It was, like, a micro moment, right? But it was a very concrete illustration of actually some of the challenges with the theory of change that the foundation was working with, the ways it wasn't holding up. And I didn't think much about it. I kind of shared it as something that was just present because I had just had the conversation.

Kai:

And that conversation, like, that story... it came up again and again — the work was, like, a year and a half long — and, like, worked its way back to me through someone else telling it to me. It was really interesting how it didn't seem like anything in the moment, but it had clearly, like, struck a nerve. And it stuck, you know. And it traveled. And there was power there.

Aisha:

That's so cool. There's so much power in seemingly small moments, exchanges.

Kai:

Yeah. So your example, your practical example...

Aisha:

Yes. And something else that I'm thinking about, too, is resistance to change. If it's cool to go to that space?

Kai:

Yeah. Not at all familiar with that space... Not at all!

Aisha:

Thinking about patterns I've identified also where, you know... I realized at different points and stages, you know, different, you know — whether it's in the middle of a project or even early on in the beginning — when I'm going through sort of like an interview or a vetting process. When sometimes folks believe they know what something is, right?

Aisha:

Like, I was being interviewed for a participatory, like a spend... it was a spend down, actually. It was a philanthropic spend down project. And the person interviewing me said, "I know definitively that, like, this project vision of mine is, like, what is needed. Like I know, because I spoke with, you know, these people..." Yada, yada. And I said, "Well, what if we learn through the work that there's other things that are needed, right?" "Well, I know that's not the case because I know for sure."

Aisha:

And that was a really important moment because I realized I believed in that moment: "Okay, this is not a space, you know... Working with this person, they believe they already know the answers. And they're not... It isn't... I don't feel or sense openness to learning something that might challenge their understanding. And I don't think that, like, that is the space for me." Because I do a lot of pushing, and challenging, and, like, naming the thing that I'm noticing that... Even if it feels, like, misaligned with how folks, you know, like really believe what they're doing.

Aisha:

And so... So I think like that's one example. And I can think of other examples as well, where I'm realizing that I think part of what contributes to change is a willingness to be told something different. And, like, a willingness to hear that maybe I am doing something that's contributing to harm. Unwittingly, you know? And so I think like that is... That openness and that willingness is really important. And I think the lack of it contributes to resistence to change.

Kai:

Yeah. There's, like, a contradiction there that I'm thinking of in your example... Of, like, wanting to make change, but not being willing to entertain that you might have to change your perspective. That's tricky.

Aisha:

Yeah. So that's one example of...

Kai:

Can I ask what you decided to do? Or, like, how you handled that?

Aisha:

I mean, in the moment, I heard so much certainty in what they were saying. It was interesting. I just noticed it. Like, "Wow! There's a lot of certainty here. Like a lot of like, 'I know for sure that this is what's needed and this is what's going to create positive outcomes.'" And that's why I asked the question. It was a curiosity. And then hearing the response was... I realized, "Okay, this is not the project for me."

Aisha:

So I turned down the project because I didn't think that it would be the kind of working relationship that I or they or the world needed, honestly. And that's interesting.

Kai:

Is there ever... You saw my face. The question on my face. I'm wondering, is there ever a scenario in which... Like, what would need to be true for you to take on a challenge like that?

Kai:

And part of why I'm asking that of you is because one of the tools you shared with me years ago that still resonates is... You had these four buckets that you sorted your work into and it helped you figure out how to allocate your energy. And it was... I'm going to fail to... Help me because I'm going to fail to list them off the top of my head! But it was resistance, reform...

Aisha:

Now I'm forgetting.

Kai:

Reimagine?

Aisha:

Reimagine...

Kai:

And then there was something creative? Maybe... It'll go in the show notes! It'll go in the show notes! But it was, like, a... It was, it was grounded in abolitionist thinking and it was like a spectrum of, like, of energy from, like, really kind of confrontational energy to really creative energy. I feel like.

Aisha:

Yes, exactly.

Kai:

And so I'm curious... Like, you do think about taking work on at that confrontational end. So I'm curious, like, what has to be true for you to take on work that's going to involve a lot of resistance to change?

Aisha:

Yeah. So... And I will shout out... There was a coach I was working with at that time. Her name is Mattice Haynes. So that was a framework she offered me. We can drop her coaching practice in the notes as well. She's amazing. She's in Atlanta, based where I am now as well. We had coffee a few weeks ago and it's fun to, like, catch up after so many years when I worked with her in 2020.

Aisha:

So it's interesting because I think this has shifted for me over time. Like, for example, within my consulting business I used to do a lot of inside change resistance work, like inside institutions. So working with folks, you know, who are trying to, like, interrogate their positions within bigger institutions and trying to challenge those institutions. And so I really, you know, I saw myself doing that kind of work and then the outside institution change work. But what's happened over time is I've found myself increasingly not wanting to do the inside change institution work.

Aisha:

Which is where I'm at now, which... Who know how long that will last because there's not a lot of money at all... So we'll see how long I can survive. Probably not very long. We'll see. We'll see if I can make things happen. But honestly, I chose not... If someone doesn't express humility and thinking that they might not have all the answers, I don't want that kind of challenge. And other people do, and y'all are amazing for that. But that's not the kind of challenge that I want because I'm tired.

Kai:

You're lumping me in there.

Aisha:

Yeah, you're more into it than me.

Kai:

I like that mess.

Aisha:

Yeah, because we've left a project before. You have limits too.

Aisha:

But yeah, so I think I'm looking for openness and like to being challenged and I'm looking for humility. I'm looking for curiosity. And if I feel and sense rigidity, I just don't think it's going to work.

Kai:

I also hear you say you're looking for kind of allies, like internal allies. So like... I think it's interesting where we're talking about... The level we're talking about resistance at is at, like, the personal level, right? I think we assume because we are all like... There's no way out of the systems that we're living in, right? So we embody them in certain ways as — we! — institutions, right, embody them inevitably. And there's going to be that resistance there. But, like, if we're going to be fighting that then, like, at least at the personal level let's... let's be operating differently. Yeah.

Aisha:

Yes, absolutely. I'm looking for, yeah, I'm looking for openings. Like people who have openings for seeds, right? O r ripples! And the openings can be created. And that is the work for some people, for sure. And just, like, you know those moments I shared earlier... I think maybe in that moment I don't remember but, like, I was like, "Okay, well they're closed off..." But then they opened up, you know? So that also shows you something as well.

Kai:

Adam Kahane, he wrote that book Collaborating With the Enemy that I love... And then also published a new one called Everyday Habits for Systems Change? Again! The correct title will be on the show notes! But he talks about it... It's an interesting metaphor I've been, like, mulling over... Like he talks about it as "cracks." Like, finding the cracks in the system and, like, that being a place where you kind of go to, to be able to, like, push and kind of do the work. Like it's a... it's an opportunity showing you where the system is failing and where it needs to be changed or composted.

Aisha:

Yes. Yeah, I agree. And there's, yeah, there's other folks who have written about that. Exactly. I think that's exactly right. And so, yeah, those cracks, those openings... That's... Those are really important sites. And that's, you know, that reminds me of Poor People's Movements. You know, one of the core points they make in that text is that when things are just, you know, moving along, not super a lot of like hectic energy... it's harder to push. But, like, in moments of upheaval, that's when you can really... Those are, like, moments of rupture that you can really push for change. And so I think about that too. There's like big cracks and small cracks.

Kai:

When we think about like big moments of rupture, like, I always have the image of a snow globe getting shaken really hard. And, like, while everything's swirling that's your moment to, like, get in there and, like, switch out the underlying structure if you're ready. So... because it's all going to settle back down eventually, you know? But if you are able to make tweaks it settles down differently. Yeah, that's how I think of that.

Aisha:

Yeah. There's something to, like, when things kind of get into a flow without, you know... The snow globe just in stillness, it's hard to... It's hard to push. It can be difficult to push because people are just, like, on the train, you know? They're just going. It's harder to disrupt it.

Kai:

And change is uncomfortable and scary and like... Or can be.

Kai:

It was interesting when I did that... I did a graduate certificate in Organizational Learning and Change several years back, right, at Northwestern. And there was a course... I think that was, like, maybe just, like, the overview of, like, major change models. But one of the first things we did as an icebreaker was just talk about how we felt about change.

Aisha:

Yeah.

Kai:

In small groups, you know, and it was real... And like, you know, there were some people who were, like... I mean, it's funny that they're studying organizational change, you know? T hey were like, "I hate it! It's so uncomfortable!"

Kai:

And then there's others who... I feel like you and I often... one of the things we bond about is that we quite like it, right? It's hard, but there's also like... It's excitement, it's evolution, it's growth. It's, like, looking for the new challenge. And so, like, that's a mindset. But not everybody feels the same way.

Aisha:

Exactly. And that really matters. So, yeah, if you're working with someone where change is really scary and has resulted in negative experiences, traumatizing experiences, that makes sense. Absolutely.

Kai:

I can't believe we're, like, we're already at the end. I would love to just create a space for you to plug something that's inspiring you in your work right now. So that could be a person, place, thing... Obviously, I guess, it's a noun! Maybe it's an action? Anything you want to shout out. Or just, like, something that's, like, sparking good energy for you. Especially in this just in so many ways really oppressive social and political moment.

Aisha:

I will shout out Loving Black Single Mothers, an organization that I've been working with for a few years now. Organizers that I've been in relationship... before I was one half of their evaluation team. They're building ecosystems of care for Black single moms. And I've been working with them, yeah, as one half of the evaluation team for a couple years. And they love the mirroring work that my colleague Aja and I do with them.

Aisha:

And it's so cool to see their work grow. And there's so much more shifting in their work. They're thinking about a participatory approach to program development, which I'm really excited to see seeding. And it's, you know... it'll be a long journey but they're doing work that's centering care and they're challenging dominant constructions that frame Black single moms as bad. And they are creating really beautiful spaces for moms to be in community and connect with one another and see that it's these fucked up systems that are telling us that we're bad. We're actually really badass, beautiful people and really... doing important work in our communities and our families.

Aisha:

And so I want to shout them out.

Kai:

I love that.

Aisha:

Shout out them.

Kai:

Shout out... Grammar!

Aisha:

Words! Grammar!

Kai:

And that feels so, for me, like, to bring it full circle... connected to your poem.

Aisha:

Yes.

Kai:

I hear all those elements of like the... Both the care and the challenge and the conflict and the...

Aisha:

Yeah. And relationship.

Kai:

Or, yeah, like willing to kind of...

Aisha:

Mm-hmm.

Kai:

Fight while being very loving.

Aisha:

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's a beautiful, beautiful working relationship. And their work is beautiful.

Kai:

Amazing. Thank you so much for being my first guest. I'm so pleased that we did this.

Kai:

Is there anything else? Anything you want to say or re-say?

Aisha:

Yeah. I mean, I think one thing I will say is that, like, with the genocide happening in Gaza, like, so many people are just feeling broken and disbelief, which honestly speaks to feeling like change is impossible, right? How is this still happening? And I will say that I turn to these moments of relationship and these moments where I am able to see change happening and that like helps me get through. And so I think that's important to say too.

Kai:

It feels very resonant with all that we've talked about too actually. The, like, connection between micro and macro — and why that matters so much. Like, the little moments of how we show up with each other matter so much.

Aisha:

Exactly.

Kai:

Thank you for listening to How Change Happens. You can find a list of the resources mentioned during this conversation in the show notes... because obviously we had a little bit of trouble with recall! And in the next month or so you’ll be able to catch me in conversation with another change practitioner about how they believe change happens. If you appreciate this podcast, please consider sharing it with a friend, colleague, or network — and/or leaving a review. I’m also always really happy when people reach out to share feedback with me directly. I want these conversations to be both inspiring and useful to folks doing social change work… so how they’re landing with you genuinely matters to me. And finally, How Change Happens is a Create Knowledge production. Thanks go out to Romane and Gaël for their remix of their song “Ti Baba” (which is the podcast’s theme song), and to my editor — the feminist podcast studio Softer Sounds. If you’re a woman or nonbinary person working on a podcast and looking for support, definitely check them out. Thanks again for listening and take care.