On Art, Community-Building & Owning Our Activism — with Shannon Downey

This timely episode is, in many ways, a love note to Chicago. 

Join me as I get to know Shannon Downey (she/they) — an artist, activist, craftivist, community builder, general instigator, founder of Badass Cross Stitch and Seriously Badass Women, and proud Chicagoan. Among other things, our conversation explores community-building; creative practices as entry points into activism; local organizing and what it takes to identify as an "activist"; how to navigate political violence; and how to grow our capacity for risk-taking.

You'll hear some of the stories that inspired Shannon's book Let's Move the Needle: An Activism Handbook for Artists, Crafters, Creatives, and Makers (how Shannon thinks change happens!) — as well as Shannon's inspiring account of how Chicagoans' across the city are organizing right now to resist ICE and protect each other, and how she and other local organizers are helping them build the skills to do that.

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If this episode resonates with you...

• Subscribe to the podcast using your favorite podcast app,
• Support How Change Happens with ratings, sharing feedback with me, and/or by sharing it with a friend, colleague or network, 
• Learn more about Shannon's change work at www.badasscrossstitch.com, follow their Instagram, and subscribe to their Substack, and/or
• Learn more about my (Kai's) change work at www.createknowledge.org, on Substack, and/or on LinkedIn.

References

• Badass Cross Stitch
• Seriously Badass Women
• Rita's Quilt
• Everyone Leads: Building Leadership from the Community Up by Paul Schmitz (correction: Paul Schmitz is the former CEO of Public Allies, not one of the founders)
• Deepa Iyer's Social Change Ecosystem Map
• The Feeling Wheel by the Gottman Institute

Transcript

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Kai: Welcome to How Change Happens, a podcast about social change, the messiness of praxis, and what emerges when our theories meet our day-to-day lives. I'm your host, Kai Fierle-Hedrick — Learning and Change Strategist, Facilitator, Coach, and founder of Create Knowledge, a consulting practice that helps change agents lead with their strengths. 

Kai: Today, I'm super excited to be chatting with Shannon Downey. Shannon is the founder of Badass Cross Stitch and Seriously Badass Women, and is an artist, activist, craftivist, community builder, and general instigator. Her work moves people from passive consumers of art into engaged creators, and leverages craft-based artforms to bring people together, present opportunities to transition from makers to change makers, and inspire radical hope for what is possible. Their book, Let's Move the Needle, an activism handbook for artists, Creatives, Crafters, and Makers was published in 2024. 

Kai: Welcome, Shannon. How are you today?

Shannon: Wonderful. Thanks for having me. 

Kai: Thanks for joining. What's going on? What's, like, coming into the room with you? 

Shannon: Oh, you know, the fall of democracy. 

Kai: We're starting there, right? 

Shannon: I mean, that's the air we're breathing right now, my friend. Lack of sleep. All of these things are coming with me this morning. Also, joy and community and, you know, hope. 

Kai: I identify with that messy mix in this moment. And speaking of what's coming in the room with you, actually… as you know, I ask each guest to sort of kick us off by sharing some kind of object that symbolizes how they believe change happens. And I'm curious, what did you bring today? 

Shannon: You know, I thought about it. I was like, well, I have to be real literal here because I wrote a whole book about it…

Kai: Amazing! I have mine too!

Shannon: Yay! I brought my book.

Kai: Let's Move the Needle 

Shannon: Which, like, literally is a book on how I believe change happens. But then, like, sort of symbolically, it is also filled with my art. And I think that art and bringing people together is one of the greater impetuses for change, at least in my world. 

Kai: So it says, Let's Move the Needle. And it's got some pins and some… it looks like embroidery, right? Like yellow embroidery. It's the back of a… it's the back of a denim jacket! 

Shannon: Yes. 

Kai: Yeah, on the cover. 

Shannon: Yes.  

Kai: And so moving the needle is the sort of pun, right, around cross stitch. 

Shannon: I love a pun!

Kai: Yeah. And then actually, would you mind saying a few words to just describe your aesthetic or, you know, your art that's featured in the book, all the images? 

Shannon: Yeah, I'm an embroiderist. So everything in the book is embroidery-based. And it's a combination of like hoops and also antique textiles that I get at estate sales and yard sales. And then they're already hand embroidered. Usually they're like tablecloths, napkins, couch covers, stuff like that. And then I modernized them. 

Shannon: So all of my messaging is very literal. It's very clear. I don't really do subtle. And so it's just, it's a lot of commentary around politics, culture, feminism, capitalism, white supremacy, you know, the light stuff.

Kai: What about whether it's the book and your choice to write the book as a way to engage people or the art that's featured in the book and the practice… like, what about that represents how you think change happens? 

Shannon: Yeah. I mean, the work that I make, the book that I wrote, is like literally in service to everyone that I'm, like, trying to trick into hanging out with me. So I'm like, “Hey, I'll teach you how to embroider, like, come hang out with me!” And then I get them in a room. And then I'm like, “Ha, ha! Now you're an activist! And so we're going to talk about all the things that you're never supposed to talk to strangers about. And we're going to make art around it. And we're going to come together in community.” 

Shannon: And so the work is that mechanism. You know, attempting to catch people's attention, get them to think more substantively about something, engaging conversation around that. That's the online hook. But then the goal is never to keep our relationships online. It's always to get them in person in any way that I can. So I have no interest in having followers. I have all the interest in having a digital and IRL community. So bringing people together, the community building, like the book is really like a community organizing textbook. It's, like, how to do this. And then if — 

Kai: Some of what I'm hearing and what you're sharing is… there's something about, like, in your belief about how change happens, like, it's very relational. I'm hearing a lot of, like, dialogue…

Shannon: Yes. 

Kai: Connection… 

Shannon: Yes. I think community and conversation are the only ways that true change, substantive change can happen, long-term change, right? There's like that fast, all at once, messy change that happens out of necessity or emergency. And then there's that like much longer, slower relational… I just think of it as, like, sleepy change, you know, that just happens.

Kai: Or sleeper change?

Shannon: Yeah, exactly. Over the course of time, that's not rooted in emergency. 

Kai: It's interesting. I'm thinking, like… I trained as a coach and one of the many things that, you know, sort of were presented in that training was this idea of, like, sort of holding a balance between being and that more like internal work… and then, like, doing. And I think I also heard that in what you were sharing because you talked about, like, your goal is not to have followers. Right? You said like the goal is to get people in real life and acting. 

Shannon: Yes.

Kai: And so can you share a little bit more about like that transition, like how that's Happened?

Shannon: I've done dozens and dozens of, like, projects and initiatives to really try to do that. I feel like one of the more fun ones that people really liked witnessing was a project called Rita's Quilt. And that was an accidental project. 

Shannon: I do a lot of estate sale shopping. And so I was at an estate sale. I came across this beautiful hand-embroidered piece on the wall, like, mounted, beautiful stitching. I, like, immediately fell in love with it, and it was priced for $5. And I was like, O my God, this is ridiculous, but also mine. 

Shannon: And they were like, “Oh, if you like embroidery, you know, there's a box in the bedroom full of supplies.” And so I go into the bedroom, I find this box, I open it up, and I start going through it. I'm like, “Oh, this is not a box of supplies!” This is a project, a massive project that this person, who I now know is named Rita Smith… she was 99 when she passed… And so she'd set up this whole quilt project and just barely started it. Like, one hexagon was done and another one was half done. That was it. And she kept this box. And so I don't know when she started it or if it was recent or had been sitting around as a work in progress for 20 years. But I was like, “Oh, god I can't leave this here!” And my friends were like, “Oh, Shannon, don't do this to yourself.“ And I was like, “Well, maybe it'll be too expensive…” And I went to the checkout. And they were like “$6!” And I was, like “Oh, now I own it…” 

Shannon: And so I took it home and I started going through it and I was like, “Oh my God, I could, like, I could never do this.” One, there were like 50 hexagons in a king size quilt that had to be hand embroidered. And then this whole quilt has to be, you know, put together. And I don't quilt. So I was like, well, this —

Kai: So you took it home and you don't quilt? 

Shannon: Right. And I was like, this is a problem… I thought maybe like I would take out pieces and stitch them and maybe display them differently than a quilt. Something to just like finish it for her so that she could like rest in craft piece. 

Shannon: And so I ended up posting pictures on the internet on Instagram and being like, “Hey, you guys, I don't know. I just feel compelled to finish this. Would anybody want to help me?” And within 24 hours, we had over a thousand volunteers on Instagram. 

Kai: Wow. 

Shannon: And not just like, “Oh, I'll help you.” Like, “You better pick me or else!” And I was like, oh, this is getting serious! And so immediately like went into project manager mode spreadsheets were made. I looked at the quilt pattern again and there were also 50 stars on it. It was a very Americana quilt. Like nothing I would ever, ever make. Right. Each hexagon is a state bird, the year it was incorporated like, all of that. 

Kai: How did that feel — to take on something, you just said… something you would never make yourself?

Shannon: So I had a habit of doing this. Like, if I go to estate sales I feel uncomfortable at them because like this person has died and I’m just like pilfering through their shit and like taking it. And it's like all in situ… you know, so it just feels like you're just walking into somebody's house and almost stealing from them, even though that's not at all what's happening. And I would often find unfinished projects, craft projects. And they were always little, you know, like a half finished cross stitch that's like five by seven. So I felt compelled to buy them and finish that for them. But I never wanted them because they were like teddy bears and Bible quotes. And I was like, nope. But I would finish them. 

Kai: Not for you? 

Shannon: No, I would finish them the way that they were meant to be finished. I would frame them up and I'd drop them off at Goodwill so that somebody else could, like, have it just to finish the story for them. So I got quite used to, like, finishing things that I would never have started on my own as tribute to the person whose stuff I just bought after they had passed. 

Kai: I also hear in there the echoes of what you were saying in the beginning around, like, dialogue and conversation. Like, there's something really powerful about being willing to be in dialogue with someone's work, even if it's not yours or not something you would choose or necessarily agree with, the willingness. I hear that kind of ethos in that too.

Shannon: Yeah, so people signed up. I sent out the pieces I gave everybody a month to stitch their pieces and get it back to me. And so that started building this digital community, right? This online community of the folks who are working on it, which was gorgeous. But then as we worked together, we were all like, “Oh, my God, we feel so connected with each other!” Working through this woman's work, having conversations about, like, “Well, I really want to change this.” And, you know, the conversation around… I doubt Rita would have changed it, right? Like, she seemed very connected to this thing. And so, like, in order to honor that, I think we shouldn't change things. And then other people being like, “I can't not. I'm going to.” And be like, “Okay, that is your choice for that hexagon.” We were just having these interesting conversations. It was bringing up a lot of history for people, like connection to their ancestors, connections to their elders, how they learned how to do all of these things. And so a lot of conversation about that. And we were sort of like, okay, we have to find a way to, like, all gather. Like, we have to know each other beyond this digital community. 

Shannon: So the first step was that we were going to hand quilt this thing together, especially because I don't know how to quilt. So I needed, like, experts to come in and, like, lead that portion of things. And so, like, 35 hand sewers got together in Chicago, and in eight hours, they hand -pieced the entire quilt top. And so, like, you're there in community with these people for eight hours, just sitting there, stitching and, like, talking, and the, you know, the community that's growing is beautiful. 

Shannon: And then the story went massive in the press, right? Like, I did 85 press interviews in one month. It was bonkers. It was like TV… I mean, I flew to L.A. to be on the Kelly Clarkson show. It was absolute madness. So it had a lot of attention and it had a lot of press. And so the National Quilt Museum was like, we want to do a whole exhibit on this thing. And we want everybody who can come to come. 

Shannon: And so the invitation went out and then like 50 of the people who worked on it from all over the country came in with their families and their friends. And we took over Paducah, Kentucky for a weekend. And everybody stayed at the same hotel. We ate together. We all got matching tattoos. Like, it really turned into this, like, little family gathering. And to this day, this group of folks who worked on it is in contact, hanging out and it's just created this absolutely beautiful little family of folks who we never would have known each other outside of this random project. 

Shannon: And then it was fun to watch all of the folks who were watching the project after the fact, send me emails and letters and whatever, being like I have this like quilt in my closet that my grandma or great great grandma made me and I just like threw it in a closet because I was like whatever and now I've seen what goes into it I've seen the history I have such a different understanding of that art object that my elders left me that it's now like been cleaned and it's prominently displayed on a bed and I have reconnected with memories of my great grandmother and whatever else and like for me that was one of the bigger parts of this was like shifting perception around women's work and women's craft and sort of the value and love and artistry that went into that. So for me it was just like, oh, I'm watching change happen in real time. I'm watching people go from strangers to acquaintances to connected friends to family. I'm watching observers rethink their connections to, you know, their family, to their heirlooms, to their art objects. 

Shannon: And ironically, like, for me, this was like a radical feminist act, right? Like, we are finishing this quilt for this person to honor all the women who, you know, whose work has been undervalued and underappreciated. And I said that in every single interview I did. And every single press piece was like, “These nice people from all over the world are stitching together a dead lady’s quilt!” And it was just like every pun you could imagine. Like: “stitching America back together!” I mean like timing-wise it was interesting because it was the first Trump administration. It was like right before Christmas. So everybody was like trying to get their holiday good feels, good vibes stories in. 

Shannon: And at first I was really mad at that. I really rejected it because I was like, this is garbage. This is not what this is about. And then I've eaten all of those words because people came to my work, people came to what I did who would never, ever, ever, ever have come to my work, have connected with me because my work is so radical. And they just saw this story and they felt so connected to that I would do this, that this was happening, that I was bringing people together, that it was America. And to their credit, most of them stayed after they realized who and what I was about. You know, like, some didn't. But many of them were like… It was like the cognitive dissonance was too much. Like they already just loved me. They loved what I had done. They loved this project. And they were like, yeah, but I love her. Okay, I might not agree with these 800 things that she says. But like, but I don't know. She did this great thing. 

Shannon: And so we've been able to have really interesting conversations bridging those gaps as a result of that project and the way the press treated it, which for me was really infuriating and then in the end I was like actually that was a really lovely gift that they didn't mean to give me but I took advantage of.

Kai: I empathize with that like frustration of like having a strong message and it getting softened.

Shannon: Yes. 

Kai: It makes me think actually a lot about I think we think about like relationship building sometimes as like soft work, right? And it gets associated with women femmes but like… One of my theories is like one of the big things that is like messing us all up right now is like our relationship to power, right, is so often constructed through this dominant like “power over” idea, right? Like power is having power over something… 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Kai: Versus like “power with” people. But like relationship building is the crux of being able to shift power to something that's more about like collectivity, right? And like making change together. We have to have relationship to do that. So it's actually very strong work.

Shannon: It's the strongest. And honestly, it's the hardest thing that I do. 

Kai: You said this is part of the intro about how you kind of trick people in and, you know, they think they're there for cross stitch and then you start talking about all the things you're not supposed to talk about. Can you tell me a little bit of, like, what happens in that moment when people realize they're in that conversation? 

Shannon: I think it surprises them. Like, I literally watched their sort of like surprise face happen, like halfway through a conversation where they're like, “Oh, shit, how'd we get here? Like, I don't… I don't remember coming here for this.” 

Shannon: And, like, actually, I don't have to do much facilitating around this, right? Like, I just, like, drop little nugs here and there. And people want to have these conversations in spaces where they feel safe. Not comfortable, but safe. They know that this room, people who are showing up for an embroidery workshop are probably not going to be the ones that are going to be, you know, screaming in their faces or throwing things, right? Or escalating things. Also, most people show up to the workshops because they know of me and they're like, “Oh, I like what she's doing. Like, I like modernizing embroidery with sassy sayings and political messages!” You know? So long as they agree with them. And so they show up sort of knowing what they're getting into, at least in terms of what they're going to be asked to make. 

Shannon: And I never ever tell people what to make. And that is like, can be very disorienting for people who are learning something new because they're used to showing up specifically for like a craft workshop and being like, we're making these flowers today, everyone. And I teach them how to do everything. And then I'm like, okay, now's the hardest part of the workshop. You have a blank canvas. And I'm not going to tell you what to put on it. And I give them tools to help them be successful. We can work with patterns. We can, you know, like pull up pictures, whatever. But the idea is that they should be focusing on something that they have strong feelings about that they want to say something about and centering that. 

Shannon: And so what's fascinating is at any given table, you're going to have 10 people who are all talking about something different, like a different issue, topic, identity, personally held belief, whatever. And that naturally leads to conversations around it. Like a good example. At a recent workshop, I had somebody who was talking about adoption justice. And they're like an international, transnational adoptee and like sort of deep in the movement. And everybody else at the table was like, “I don't know anything about that. Would you mind sharing a little bit?” And that person chose to give them a full class. And it was amazing. And the conversation that came out of that. 

Shannon: So while everybody else at the table might have been talking about, like, I think one was around like their ADHD, one was around like asthma, right? So everybody is just sort of talking about their like, you know, stitching around what they want to be thinking about. The entire conversation was about adoption justice because that person brought up something that no one else at that table had ever considered and they all had their minds blown and then it was like well how do we learn more about this how do we get involved in this and like that's what I want in those spaces. Like, they also function as sort of recruitment events for issues, right? Like, “Oh you care about that issue? Do you know about this group or this org or this movement?” And like connecting people that way. 

Shannon: So I see my job as like… I always say my mission in life is just to recruit and train activists and everybody should be an activist. I just don't, I'm not going to tell you what to be an activist around, right? I'm here to like help you discover what it is that you care about that you want to be making change on and then helping you develop that voice, helping you understand where you fit into those movements and how to join in and make change. 

Kai: You're connecting people to what matters about them and then kind of pointing them toward how to do something about it.

Shannon: Absolutely. Yes. And sometimes that works for my beliefs. And sometimes it works directly against my beliefs. That's okay. 

Kai: I want to go back to that example you were sharing because it highlights attention there, right, around like, so there is this sort of position, right, that like we do not ask people who are at the oppressed end of systems to educate people who are at the other end. And I heard in that story what you were sharing that, you know, there was a sort of ask that resonated with that a little bit. But the person was willing and to share and it led to a positive place. 

Kai: And I'll say, like, I navigate this too as like there's times where I've been in spaces, I think a particular networking call where I'm late diagnosed Autistic and ADHD and I ended up being the only Autistic person on a call that was around coaching folks who are Autistic. And it was this moment of like, am I willing to do this? And I kind of was, you know, but also like I can feel that tension. So I think about this too… like, when am I willing, when am I not? 

Shannon: Yes. 

Kai: And I'm curious like for you, how do you navigate that line — maybe individually and as a facilitator holding space for those conversations? 

Shannon: I never, ever put anybody on the spot in any of my spaces, right? Like, they are at tables, they are working with strangers, and then the conversation, you know, happens or doesn't happen. If that person had said, no, I'm not really comfortable diving into this today, nobody at that table would have had a second thought about it. They would have been like, cool, I'll go Google that. I'm sure that that's what would have happened. 

Shannon: But I think about in my own life, like moments where I have had to almost be the queer spokesperson, right? Like, I'm in the room… If I don't say something, this is going to go horribly wrong. But in that space, like, I feel safe enough. And it's not like it's part of my job. But if I I'm an activist and I do want people to be able to have these conversations. I have to be willing to engage with them in things that might be uncomfortable. 

Shannon: And so that is how I set up every room that I'm in. It's like nobody has a responsibility to engage in any of this, like including what you want to make. If I'm like, if you just want to make a flower today because that's where you're at, make a flower. Who cares? We are learning today. And I think when you give people permission to say no, when you give people permission to not take the invitation, then they're in such a position where they're like, “Oh, well, I don't have to. But like, these people are really nice and they've just never even heard of adoption justice. And this is a real opportunity for me to, like, give them a little bit of information about this and like have a little dialogue that will probably be well received and kind.” So again, it's like always an invitation. It's never a requirement. It's never an ask, including engaging with other participants. 

Kai: It's taking me back to that idea of like connection and relationships that we spoke about at the very beginning too, that when there's enough relationship in place or sense of connection, the sharing is different. 

Shannon: And it can happen so quickly and so easily. Like, how many times have you been into like a 101 workshop where you're learning something totally new? Maybe it's at a library and maybe it's somewhere else. And you walk in and nobody's talking and the instructor's like setting up and not acknowledging people and like you look for fair table by yourself or you just like trying to sit in the back you know like you're not that is a very common uncomfortable experience of walking into a new space. And I never ever ever want people to feel that ever. 

Shannon: So the minute somebody… I have to be set up before people started arriving because I need to be greeting people I need to be chatting them up I'm learning about them immediately. They, you know, they start to take seats. I bring the next person in. I'm like, “oh, here's a seat right here.” And I literally put them next to someone without forcing it. I'm just like, “Here, why don't you sit here? This is so -and -so. I just talked to them about this.” And then the chatter begins, right? 

Shannon: So by the time the workshop starts, everybody in the room is at least comfortable, if not, like, already engaging with one another around this. And the first five to ten minutes are me just asking them questions. How did you learn about this? Like, what's your experience with embroidery? I crack a lot of jokes to keep things like light and fun. So by the time we get to the stitching part, folks feel super comfortable with everybody that's around them most of the time. And therefore, the ask and the share is like so easy to make happen because of the dynamic that's already been set. So I think obsessively about community and how to make safe, not necessarily comfortable, but safe spaces for people so that these conversations can happen.

Kai: It’s dialogue, not content, right? Which is a big difference. Vs. like the performance of who we are for the sake of a teaching moment. 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Kai: There's something about what you just shared that makes me want to ask the lineage question right now. 

Shannon: Sure.

Kai: Around like thinking obsessively about building community and relationships. And so I'm curious if you had to, you know, list off between three and five sort of core influences that have shaped, you know, your approach to social change. They can be people, experiences, things you've read, you know, whatever it is that sparks, what would come up for you? 

Shannon: The first thing that would come up would be my parents. They, like, I was raised in the labor movement. My dad was president of the Boston Pipefitters Union. And so my home was the hub of all sidemaking and organizing around labor rights. And so that sort of, you know, kicked it off for sure. 

Shannon: I'm going to say the Roman Catholic Church, but like not in a good way. Like, I grew up deep in the church and like Catholic school through 12th grade, uniforms, priests and nuns teaching me, all that. And I learned a lot about community through that. I also learned a lot about high -control religion and, like, controlling communities through that. 

Kai: Power over or not power with. 

Shannon: Exactly. And I had a lot of tension with all of that, specifically around, like, feminism and, like, just my feelings about being a human woman in these spaces. And pushing back against that constantly and being met with just the worst, you know, and being like, so in order to, for change to happen, I have to be, like, angry and, like, keep going after them, right? That's, that was the only way that I saw. 

Shannon: And then I got to college, and I was finally out of the, like, white Irish Catholic community that I was raised in. And I became an R .A. And I was part of this, you know, series of dorms, Baker Chadbourne Greenough at UMass Amherst. And the core group of RAs and the leadership that we had like transformed me as a human. Just like I had never interacted with people that were all so different than me, all of them. I mean, it was the most diverse group of people that I had ever worked with. The leadership was brilliant. I mean, Erica Piedade, Noga Gillat Flory, Christopher MacDonald Dennis, like, brilliant leadership around, “No, this is how you build power with… This is how you build community… This is, like… This is how we take our wildly different lived experiences and start to build understanding and connection through them…” And that's when I started to see that change doesn't have to be volatile and aggressive and angry. And I was able to sort of like release some of that and really think about change as relational and as almost healing. 

Shannon: Anyways, I'm going to hang out with them next week. We're having our 25th reunion, and I'm so excited! But, like, that's how important that group was. There were 40 of us that for 25 years have stayed in connection and in community as a result of that experience. 

Kai: It makes me think of the abolitionist idea of, like, it's both dismantling, there is a fight piece, but it's also building and, like, being the world, right? Which we can do in this moment.

Shannon: Yeah.

Kai: We can build the community and interact in ways that are different and powerful. 

Kai: That actually is maybe an interesting segue to the second part of our conversation, which is the sort of… You know, I ask folks to consider a story of social change work that they're involved in that has either changed something about you know, how they believe change happens. But I also know you live in Chicago and in this moment… it is a pretty violent moment. And so, you know, other podcast episodes have spoken about stories from past experiences, but I know we talked about maybe the story you bring today is from now? 

Shannon: Yeah, we're living it right now. 

Kai: Yeah, and so I wanted to make some space for you to talk about the change work that you're engaged in now and how it's both… maybe about how it's validating things you believe about how change happens? And also if there's any surprises, things you're learning or like shifting? 

Shannon: Yeah, I mean, Chicago is wild right now. ICE is all over our city. They are incredibly violent. They are honestly lawless. They are not wearing uniforms that we understand. They are covering their faces. They are in unmarked vehicles. They are literally abducting our neighbors off of the street and out of Walgreens. The National Guard is here, but they're not active yet because there's a court order pending. So we'll see what happens with that. But I think it is the most evil I've seen this close. And it is also the most beautiful community resistance I've ever seen this close.

Shannon: This city is like, “Absolutely not. No, you won't.” And for the community organizers in the city, like we've been pounding this drum a long time like, “Hey, you guys, community! Like, here's things that we need help with…” But this is one of those moments where change happens fast, messy, and all at once. And it's beautiful. I mean, this city has organized at a rate that I could never have hoped for. And so I've been involved in a community defense group, rapid response group. you know, we all call it something different. 

Kai: I love that moment of like, we all call it something different, but we're all doing it. 

Shannon: Yes, everything's got its own name, but who cares? 

Kai: We all have the same line of sight. It needs to happen!

Shannon: Exactly. And so almost every neighborhood in the whole city has built one of these. And this is just neighbors who are on, you know, Signal, who are monitoring what's happening, who are like taking photos, identifying, calling people in saying I need immediate response at this cross street, ICE is here, they are trying to abduct someone. And anybody who can make it there is showing up there. 

Shannon: And it's not just showing up, like, it's showing up in force, right, to be like, okay, like, you are being bared witness to. But there have been like interventions where people have been unarrested as a result, de -arrested, as a result of people, like, physically interfering in it. We are seeing cars blocking ICE vehicles in. They're literally smashing into people's cars to get away because they are so overwhelmed by the response. They're tear-gassing us. They're tear-gassing children. It's unconscionable. I think, too, just a few days ago is when they tear guests in front of a school and, like, within a neighborhood. And that felt like yet another tipping point, right, where people were just absolutely outreach. So the folks who are a little slow to get on board with the action taking are, like, really showing up now. 

Shannon: We have whistleberg grades all over the city. I think the new fall fashion for Chicago this fall is An orange whistle around your neck, and we have whistle codes to let people know ICE is in the area or ICE is detaining someone. The honking of horns, the blocking of alleys… Like, people are throwing down so hard and it's gorgeous to see the community come together and self-organize, right? It wouldn't work if, you know, one person or one group was trying to organize the city. It just wouldn't, because every neighborhood is so different and has such different needs. And so these are all like block, neighborhood specific. And folx are taking on these leadership roles and just saying ok what do we need to do now? There was like, I think it was called Whistle-Mania where everybody was like folding zines and putting them in with whistles and distributing them to small businesses and to free libraries and, like, making sure that everybody in the community got a whistle, understood, you know, their role, understood whistle code, like, what people need to be doing. 

Shannon: And so every day I just wake up and, like, it's so hard, right? There's, like, a level of stress and tension across the city that I have never seen before. But it's also, like, there's so much power in the community, in the connections, in the people, and folks are just not tolerating it. They're just, they're not letting it stand. And I think it, I think it's amazing. 

Shannon: And so being a part of that has been incredible. And like me and like six other community organizers put together an all-day training, like an eight-hour training for folks for free. We put it together in two weeks, I think. And it was, yeah, so we had just under 200 folks show up, which was amazing and a lot of people to train through. But we had like, de-arrest training. We had anti-abduction training. We had how to, like, I focused on how to build creative direct actions. We had how to build a community defense network, medic training... 

Shannon: I mean, like, literally everything to get people having the experience of what it means to be in a situation where somebody's being abducted without having the risk so that their bodies could practice it and see, like, okay, through this embodied training… your body will surprise you, right? We had folks who came in who thought their risk tolerance was really high, and folks who thought their risk tolerance was really low. And then they go through this training where they have to encounter fake ice, encounter fake abduction, like, you know, how do you move as a group? How do we plan for this? And folks came out of it and they were surprised. Like a friend of mine was like, “I'm totally a high risk! I didn't even know! I thought I was low risk!” But like going through that and seeing the power of having a group who's like moving together, like that's what she needed to feel like she could take risk. And I think we all need that. We ask people to be braver than we would ever be and it’s not fair.

Kai: I think we need to know when the reverse is true as well, right? When we think we’re high risk and we’re not. That’s one of the things I’m struck by as I’m watching some of the video coming out of Chicago, just how incredibly dysregulated a lot of these, like, ICE agents and folks look… 

Shannon: Yes.

Kai: In the moment and how scary that is. Like, there's no making good decisions in that moment. 

Shannon: Absolutely not.

Kai: I'm curious, like, are people calling themselves organizers? 

Shannon: No. 

Kai: Because I've been thinking about this tension. And I think about… you write about it in your book… 

Shannon: Yeah.

Kai: …Around the power in owning identities, in particular, like, owning the identity of being an activist. And there has been, right, this like professionalization of organizing… 

Shannon: Yes. 

Kai: …So that it can mean very different things that sometimes I think makes it feel out of reach for everyday folks and can make us feel like we can't do as much. And it's particularly on my mind because I had a conversation recently with a friend who was going to speak on a panel and was like trying to figure out what to list under their name. And they were going back and forth about whether to list themselves as an advocate. And I was like, I would call you an organizer! You know, like in the like original local sense of the word, because this is somebody… they're part of this beautiful neurodivergent queer parent group that I have connected with here in Beacon… who absolutely organized all these neurodivergent families a couple of years ago to like create this kind of mutual aid-like support system that we didn't have and we were desperately needing. So I'm like, you're 100% an organizer, right? Like you're setting up the WhatsApp group, you're bringing us together, you know, and like organizing like collective child care and like… But they didn't see themselves that way… 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Kai: …Right? And so, yeah, I'm curious what you're thinking is on that tension between kind of labeling or owning the identity.

Shannon: I hate the tension and I don't think anybody should feel the tension because, I mean, it's just rooted in capitalism, right? It's like what you do for money, for a job, for a career, is your identity. 

Shannon: So therefore, you know, I have a degree in library science… I don't! I'm pretending here. I have a degree in library science. I work at a library. I'm a librarian. I get a paycheck from the library. Proof, I am a librarian. That is my identity, right? 95% of all librarians are activists. Like, they are holding this country together with duct tape, okay? I have the most respect for the librarians. Few of them that I've interacted with would, you know, like own that identity. And that's just a little example of how capitalism structures how we think about our identities and the impact that that has on our work. 

Shannon: Because who's going to do more? The person who's like, “Oh, you know, I just do some things around voter rights. I send some postcards. I am a poll monitor.” And then they list off like 10 things that they do. And you're like, “So you're a voting rights activist!” And they're like, “Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I just do stuff.” And I'm like, well, that's literally what an activist does, is like they do stuff around an issue that they want to see change. And when you think of yourself as an activist for a cause or issue, we lean so heavy into our identities that, like, that is an amazing identity to hold because then you are going to do more in order to prove that you are this thing, right? Versus somebody who was like, “Well, you know, I just do some things.” Right? Like, it's easy to step away from that when you're like, “I just do some things.” Versus when you claim and own an identity. 

Kai: I read… there's a book by one of, I think, the Public Allies founders, Everybody Leads or something like that. And they… in it there's a story that they tell about, I think, it was a Public Allies person being on a panel and being asked, like, did you volunteer, right, when you were younger… or something along those lines. Because they were so engaged in volunteering. And they were like, “No, you know, I was too busy.” And then they listed off like volunteering with their church and babysitting the neighbor's kids and like all of these things that were quote unquote volunteering but not labeled, right? 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Kai: They were still very present and engaged and like to the relational point earlier, like connected and active in their community because that was just the way their community was and they didn't need a label on it. So I'm curious, like, is there also maybe a world in which it's just the way we are that we could aspire to? 

Shannon: I think in these conversations, when I push for further understanding, because I'm like, what is holding you back from this label, or naming this thing that you do in a way that honors what you do, it's a lot of, I mean, “Activists, like, they're, like, out there, they are yelling…” Like, there is this, like, distorted perspective of what an activist is. The same as there is with an artist, right? Like, who gets to call themselves an artist is an even bigger conversation in these groups because I work with people who are the most incredible artists I've ever seen. And they're like, “Oh, I'm not an artist!” And I'm like, “What are you talking about?!” And they're like, “I just craft for fun. Like, this is a hobby.” And I'm like, “That doesn't make you less of an artist.” Right? 

Shannon: And so it's really breaking down the stigma or the visuals of what they think those labels mean because I think it does harm. It does harm for them not to think of themselves as an artist because then we lean into the capitalist mindset of this is what an artist is. And it is rarely inclusive of women and fiber arts, right? Although that seems to be changing, which is very exciting, which I would argue is coming directly from these women who are saying, “I am an artist, and this is my medium.” Likewise with activism, like nobody… Well, I wouldn't say nobody looks at me and thinks, “She's an angry activist!” Sometimes I am!

Kai: Aren't we all? 

Shannon: Yeah. But it's that idea of there's only one way and one vision of like what this thing is. And I think that we need to be much more expansive about all of our identities and who fits in and, like, who captures this idea of this role? Because I think more people would be activists if they didn't think of activism in this tiny box that is usually wrapped in anger and rage versus community and fulfillment and just who we are because we want the world to be better. So maybe it's a yes/and. 

Kai: Yeah, I feel like you're teasing out the nuance that it's not necessarily like, this is the way it is, but there's something about when a refusal to identify with a role is actually like coming from a really harmful mental model or like disconnecting us from our agency. 

Shannon: Yes. 

Kai: I'm always interested in this question of like, what is the change that we're seeing or sensing? You talked a little bit about that, but what's the change you're seeing in community in Chicago right now? 

Shannon: It's interesting because we have an outside force that is leading to this beautiful unification across the city in a way that we don't normally experience. Like, I feel like… There's something special about Chicago. I'm not going to lie. I love this city so much. And we are very proud to be Chicagoans. Like there's a West Wing joke about it because like, “You ever met somebody from Chicago? No? You'd know if you did because it's all they talk about, it's the first thing they tell you!” Like there is a pretty strong city pride. We know that we're dysfunctional in a lot of ways. But that's our dysfunction, so don't you worry about it. You know, like, you don't get to say anything about it. That's ours. So now we... 

Kai: Feels like family, when family will, like, do whatever to each other, but close ranks when an outsider gets critical. 

Shannon: Yes, yes. I'm not saying it's healthy! I'm just saying we do it. So we have this outside force coming in trying to tell us that our neighbors are problems. And we're like, absolutely not. Like, I don't know why they started with Chicago. This was a fool's errand. Because we also know that the rest of the country is looking to us. They're looking to L.A. They're looking to D.C. to say, like, “Okay, what are they doing? How are they resisting? Is it working? You know, how are they being punished?” Right? 

Shannon: And so I think that there is this, like, real unification that happened very quickly because of these outsiders that are trying to take our neighbors away and disappear them. And we're like, “No, no, no, they're Chicagoans. You don't get them. They're ours. Even if they're problematic, they’re our problems. Don't worry about it. We got this.” 

Shannon: You know, but they're… It's so indiscriminate. It's so indiscriminate. It's — they're picking up U.S. citizens all the time. Like, it's, it's wild.

Shannon: And so that's the change that I've seen happen faster than anything else. And folks who are just like who went from, “Yeah, whatever, there's lots of things going on in this city that we should care about. I don't necessarily have time or energy for that.” And now they're like throwing down, right? They're picking up smoke grenades and throwing it back at them. They're blocking off alleys, right? They're blocking in cars. They're smashing windows. They're slashing tires. Like, they are doing the thing. And I think there's like a real interesting case study that is going to come out of this around community and power. 

Kai: And I'm hearing the power of pride.

Shannon: Yes. So, I mean, honestly, we love this city and we will protect it. But what's a city? It's community. It's people. And so you're not coming in here to take our people. Uh-uh. Not today, my friends.

Kai: It's interesting. Like, I personally get anxious around violence. And, like, figuring out when violence is or isn't called for and, like, how to… you know, make that decision. But I also find myself thinking a lot about… So, like, I've studied Nonviolent Communication, right? And, like, even in Nonviolent Communication, there is the protective use of force, right? So it's not a, like, all or nothing… 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Kai: Even in that model. And so I think a lot about, like… I both see what's happening in Chicago. And I don't know how you don't defend yourself against that. 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Kai: You know… and so it feels like a really good example of that. And then I also am like sitting with the feelings of just like, aaah. It's that just knee-jerk discomfort. 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Kai: I'm curious, like, how that's coming up in conversation right now in Chicago… 

Shannon: Well, I mean, it feels like everybody's sort of on the same page of like, look, we are not destructive people. Like, we're not interested in, like, escalating any of this, but if they're crashing cars, pulling people out of cars, throwing tear gas around children, we will defend ourselves. Whatever that looks like. 

Shannon: I mean, literally, it just looked like a lot of people screaming and recording to document what was happening and throwing smoke bombs back at them, you know? And it didn't really go beyond that, right? But it seems to be this unspoken sort of universal thing right now. And I don't know how long that will be sustained because, you know, they're here and they're escalating and they're escalating with violence in lots of different places. The thing is… it's short -lived, right? It's in and out. So it doesn't have time to build in any one spot. It's like a real wait and see. 

Shannon: And like, I don't know, I've done a lot of thinking around like, okay, if I was around for this, what could I reasonably expect to do? What are my own boundaries around taking action on anything? And then you're in the moment. And it's totally different than anything that you thought of or planned for. And so you have no idea how you're going to react. But you… I do enough scenario planning to calm myself so that when I'm in a moment like that, I can go back to that, hopefully. 

Kai: I have a plan. 

Shannon: Yeah, exactly. Like, there should be a plan for all of it as much as you can make a plan. So that's why the scenario planning, I think, is really helpful, even though sometimes it can lead to ruminating. Not ideal, right? You got to shut it off at some point and be like, no, no, we're done processing that one. 

Kai: Yeah. That makes me think, too, about… You speak about it in your book, like, you referenced Deepa Iyer… Iyer?

Shannon: Iyer, yeah.

Kai: Iyer. The idea of roles, too, like, I think it's very interesting and, like, who's playing what roles, who's organizing in what ways, providing what supports, who's stepping in to, like, play that kind of frontline defense. 

Shannon: I mean, truly, like, I've had this conversation with so many friends. Like, I have one friend, she's like, “Shannon, I would not… like, if you encountered a Nazi on the street and I was with you, we should talk about what that would look like.” And I'm like, “Oh, don't worry. I would push you to the side and say, ‘Wait, here! I'll be right back!’ And then you would record it and I would circle back to you after.” And she's like, “Okay, great!” It's like we just, you know… like everybody has different tolerances. Everybody has different risk profiles. And then I think people surprise themselves with what they're capable of when they sense that someone that they want to protect is in danger.

Kai: I think that's what I also like about Iyer’s framework and also the way you talk about different types of activism. Like you have the kind of labels for craftivism… 

Shannon: Yes. Yes. 

Kai: In your book. The idea that we don't all have to be doing that work in the same way and we can still be working together and pushing forward together.

Shannon: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Kai: Because there's definitely, I think, sometimes this sense of like, this is what good activism looks like. 

Shannon: Yes. 

Kai: This is what effective activism looks like. 

Shannon: Yes. Which is why that goes back to the identity thing. People are like, “Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not that. And because I'm not that, I am not an activist.” And I think that people think less of the work that they do do because they don't align with that label. And therefore they're like, “Well, they're the activist. I'm just doing stuff.” And it's like, no, no, no, no. Activism looks like a million different things. They're all important and they all work together. And so you find the space where you succeed the most at… or you feel the most effective… and lean into it and do it amazingly well and know that that is changing everything for everyone. 

Kai: That really resonates for me. My close-out question is always a sort of pay-it-forward question. And so as we're wrapping, I'm really interested, and maybe you've spoken to it already because I've heard it in your voice a lot today. But what's inspiring your social change work right now?

Shannon: Oh, my city. I mean, it is the most inspiring social change collective action that I have seen in a really long time or been a part of in a really long time. 

Shannon: I feel like a lot of my work is that sort of slow, gradual, incremental change work. And I'm really happy to be in a moment of and seeing, like… because this could have gone really bad, right? And it's not great. But really bad for me would have been apathy. Really bad for me would have been people holing up in their houses and being like, “Oh, God, like, I can't risk this or I'm not willing to risk this.” And I have seen the complete opposite. I have seen folks who I never thought I would see with a whistle around their neck patrolling a school who are doing it and who are using their time that way. 

Shannon: And so, like I just keep looking for all of the wins, for all of the helpers, for all of the change agents, the activists who I wouldn't have pointed to them and said, “Oh, activist!” before. And now I'm like, “Heck yeah, activist! Like, you're doing it.” And so creative. There's so much creativity happening. And that is always the most fun for me, right? 

Shannon: Like a group the other day was like, “I really want people to start breaking the law.” And I'm like, “Oh? Say more!” They're like, “You know, like, I really just want people to, like, feel emboldened to take little risks. So when they have to take a big risk, it's not as foreign for them.” 

Kai: Civil disobedience…

Shannon: Yes. And I'm like, oh! I've been preaching this for years. Like, go check out my street art campaign. And, you know, like, I'm just trying to get the ladies to, like, break a little rule with some wheat paste. And they were like, “All right, let's level it up. Can we do spray paint?” And I was like, “Heck yeah!” So I put together a tutorial… It's like Martha Stewart does street crime! You know what, I made a bunch of different stencils for people and showed them how to do it. And now folks are like, “Oh, my God, I just spray painted my sidewalk!” You know, and it's… it’s fantastic. 

Shannon: But like these are the embodied exercises that we need people participating in in order to start to push their own boundaries of comfort because just being in public, recording, like you are putting yourself in danger and we need you to keep doing that. And so we need you to push your comfort zones and get a little bit more comfortable with the discomfort of putting yourself at risk in service to your community. 

Kai: Yeah, it's powerful. It's making me think it's funny, we both worked as teaching artists wat back when… And something I used to say to kids, especially if we were going on to do like a performance or speak or read poetry aloud and there'd always be this anxious moment. I'd be like, “Are you feeling anxious or nervous?” And they'd be like, “Yeah!” And I would say, “Good! That means you're doing something that matters to you.” 

Shannon: Yes!

Kai: Right? That, like, it means what's happening right now is important. 

Shannon: Yes! 

Kai: It's like our body's signal. Not always… I know sometimes anxiety is…

Shannon: Yeah, yeah…

Kai: A different kind of signal. 

Shannon: Yes. I, too, would also help them and we'd be like, “Oh, what are you feeling right now?” And they would, you know… so they'd go through the description of how their body was feeling. And I was like, “And how are you labeling that?” And they're like, “Oh, I'm so nervous!” And I'm like, “Let's think about that. Like, could that be excitement? Think about when you're excited what that feels like…” And there's so much overlap between the two that you can really trick them into like going from anxiety to excited!

Kai: I have a friend who pointed out to me a couple years ago that like, you know feelings wheels as resources? That like, I think it's anxiety and excitement are right next to each other.

Shannon: I mean, that tracks, right?

Kai: They're different sub-feelings of different primary feelings, but they are right next to each other. 

Shannon: Yeah. So it's like, how do we channel that from anxiety into excitement and get them like, yeah… I mean, of course, there's always a little bit under there of anxiety when it comes to taking big risks. But like, it's exciting, right? It's exciting to try something new and to like push yourself and to know that you're doing it for the purpose of protecting people that you care about or people that are in your orbit who deserve to be protected. 

Kai: And to feel powerful. 

Shannon: Yeah. Yes!

Kai: We're taking action. We're in our agency. 

Shannon: I'm a firm believer that Chicagoans will continue to stand in their power and unite and reclaim our city. 

Kai: Thank you so much for joining me today, Shannon. It was really awesome to get to know you a bit better and also to hear you talk about your experience of what's going on in Chicago right now and the mix of both the horror of it, the violent piece, but also the places for hope and the way that that's inspiring you. I am very grateful for that.

Kai: Thank you for listening to How Change Happens. You can find a list of the resources mentioned during this conversation in the show notes, and in the next month or so, you'll be able to catch me in conversation with another change practitioner about how they believe change happens. If you appreciate this podcast, please consider sharing it with a friend, colleague, or network, and/or leaving a review. I'm also always happy when people reach out to share feedback with me directly. I want these conversations to be both inspiring and useful to folks doing social change work. So how they're landing with you genuinely matters to me. Finally, How Change Happens is a Create Knowledge production. Thanks go out to Romane and Gaël for their remix of the song Ti Baba, which is the podcast theme song, and to my editor, the feminist podcast studio, Softer Sounds. If you're a woman or nonbinary person working on a podcast and looking for support, definitely check them out. Thanks again for listening, and take care.